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Thread: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

  1. #21
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    A single small panel of her drawing once every two hundred chapters or so would be enough.

    The way things are now it feels like her dream got left back at Reverse Mountain along with Sanji's dream.
    At a later date Nami is just going to reveal she's been mapping the entire journey. Once she gets Laugh tale (the hardest destination) it'll be easy to map the rest of blues, sky islands, and rest of the grand line.
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    You could throw these complaints at basically every arc. Arlong Park and Alabasta and Skypeia and Thriller Bark didn't contain those sorts of moments either!

    The crew don't always do the things we know they do, nor do they need to. Thats the kind of stuff anime filler comes up with because they only know the character for having exactly one personality trait.

    Yeah it wouldn't hurt for Oda to do a little more of that stuff from time to time, but its hardly a complete failure. Robin got to you her infiltration skills and embracing of her demon side, CHopper's doing his doctor thing to cure the oni virus, Usopp did his lying thing to get info and did the sniper thing when it was appropriate. Sanji showed a lot of growth with asking Robin (a woman!) for help, etc.

    They got backburnered a bit for the samurai, and that's fine for an arc. But we don't need to see "Sanji feeds the hungry" again when we literally JUST had a whole arc about it where he insisted on feeding Big Mom and saving her life... a development a lot of readers didn't like!
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  3. #23

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    I dont think Oda has ever in a single arc focused on each strawhats individual talents and skills to advance the plot so I'm not sure why you would expect him to do now?

    All the things you list he didn't do the same time in Wano he didn't do in Zou, WCI, Dresrossa, Fishman island, Saboady, Thriller Bark, Water 7/EL, Skypeia, and so on.

    The strawhats came to Wano for two specific reasons and they've mainly stuck to that.
    Oh I am completely aware of this.

    My main point is that Wano, as an arc, was perfectly setup to utilize each of the SHs individual strengths.

    The arc that sort of came close to this was dressrosa.

    In dressrosa, it seemed that each of the Straw Hats had their own little reason for fighting against Doflamingo.

    It even had one of my most memorable Franky moments, when he straights up tells Luffy that whether he liked it or not, he was going to help out the dwarves.

    I just think that as characters, they might have emotional stakes due to Momo, but it still doesn't feel like its enough.

    At least Luffy has Tama, Zoro has Yasuie, Robin has yasuie's daughter.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    You could throw these complaints at basically every arc. Arlong Park and Alabasta and Skypeia and Thriller Bark didn't contain those sorts of moments either!

    The crew don't always do the things we know they do, nor do they need to. Thats the kind of stuff anime filler comes up with because they only know the character for having exactly one personality trait.

    Yeah it wouldn't hurt for Oda to do a little more of that stuff from time to time, but its hardly a complete failure. Robin got to you her infiltration skills and embracing of her demon side, CHopper's doing his doctor thing to cure the oni virus, Usopp did his lying thing to get info and did the sniper thing when it was appropriate. Sanji showed a lot of growth with asking Robin (a woman!) for help, etc.

    They got backburnered a bit for the samurai, and that's fine for an arc. But we don't need to see "Sanji feeds the hungry" again when we literally JUST had a whole arc about it where he insisted on feeding Big Mom and saving her life... a development a lot of readers didn't like!
    I agree with a lot of your points, except the part where it would seem repetitive to have someone like Sanji feeding the hungry.

    First of all, we literally had an arc, Zou, where Chopper was curing the minks from poison. Now he is curing the samurai in Udon, and curing again in Onigashima. No one is complaining. In fact, these are great developments because Chopper is doing what he does best and actually tangibly affecting the flow of the plot.
    i.e: Without chopper, we don't get Mink allies, without chopper, we don't get udon prisoner allies, without chopper, we don't get more beast pirate allies.

    Now, if we use Sanji as an example. Lets look at Wano and how its been setup, in terms of the starving country plot point.

    Recently, the anime has been beating us over the head at how important a simple bowl of bean soup was to Tama. This little girl has known starvation all her life to the point that such food is like a holy grail to her.

    This applies to other Wano citizens.

    Sanji spent 2 years learning how to make food that has a dramatic positive effect on the body of the eater.

    Surely, just like Chopper doing his doctoring, it would not have been unfeasibly to have Sanji do the same thing but with his food.

    Yes, I get that him calling for help was cool and all, but before that Sanji, the character, didn't really have much to do. He sold some food to rich people, beat up some yakuza, beat up page one and that's pretty much it.

    Also it really would not be repetitive for Sanji to do something about feeding people, because Wano is the first arc where they have gone to a country with that specific problem.
    HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
    ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    A missed opportunity isn't (always) the same thing as a narrative flaw. Some of the op suggestions (Brook's in particular) feel like extra fluff more than anything else. And some other things feel like they'd be better suited for post-battle material anyway. You think we're not getting Robin looking into the history of the place after Onigashima? That's all but guaranteed. Franky discovering seastone is a lot less certain, but far from off the table for the final volume. Probably makes more sense to throw in there anyway, because it's not like they're using the Sunny in the current battle.

    The Zoro point is also a strange one, given that the Wano samurai were always built up as allies rather than enemies. Who are we counting as "one swordsman" anyway? Killer? Denjiro? Onimaru? King?

    The strongest point in the op is the one about Sanji. Of all the crew, he's the one I've been least satisfied with the development of. A moment like the one suggested that takes him back to his roots would go a long way to changing his trajectory. Even with it being a plot point that his stand was a meeting place for the alliance, it couldn't have taken too much kerjigging to get him feeding the hungry outside the city instead without disrupting the story. And even then, like Robin and Franky, it could still happen post-Onigashima, without the need to worry about blowing his cover or the enemy sweeping in and taking the food back.

    I'm saving my final judgement on Wano and whether it's tangled web of tangents in the middle act were worth it for after the arc is done and I've given it a full reread. It feels a little silly to commit so hard to there being so many things missing or failed while the wheel's still in spin.

  5. #25
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by kevo_koma View Post
    Oh I am completely aware of this.

    My main point is that Wano, as an arc, was perfectly setup to utilize each of the SHs individual strengths.

    The arc that sort of came close to this was dressrosa.

    In dressrosa, it seemed that each of the Straw Hats had their own little reason for fighting against Doflamingo.

    It even had one of my most memorable Franky moments, when he straights up tells Luffy that whether he liked it or not, he was going to help out the dwarves.

    I just think that as characters, they might have emotional stakes due to Momo, but it still doesn't feel like its enough.

    At least Luffy has Tama, Zoro has Yasuie, Robin has yasuie's daughter.
    I can get some of these complaints but I don't think in one arc Oda would try to cover all of the strawhats talents since we've seen them already gradually starting from each member joined. It risks being more of the same thing and Oda does show growth or character development with the strawhats in other ways. Some of your suggestions have been done in the past in different ways though.

    Sanji crying for Robin then she actually steps up and delivers. Sanji got the whole last arc to get more back story which is really unprecedented if your name isn't Luffy.

    I expected a bit more spotlight on Zoro but that didn't really pan out the way I thought it would (only had Sanji to compare to).

    Oda has pretty much stayed on mission going back to when Luffy and Law formed their alliance.

    As for the crews dreams, it seems ever since they reunited all of the strawhats seemed to have all dedicated themselves to making Luffy pirate king first. They haven't forgotten them its just in the new world your pretty much are just facing yonkou crews and their allies so pretty much only Robin's and Luffy's dreams are advancing for now.
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
    Last.fm

  6. #26

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    A missed opportunity isn't (always) the same thing as a narrative flaw. Some of the op suggestions (Brook's in particular) feel like extra fluff more than anything else. And some other things feel like they'd be better suited for post-battle material anyway. You think we're not getting Robin looking into the history of the place after Onigashima? That's all but guaranteed. Franky discovering seastone is a lot less certain, but far from off the table for the final volume. Probably makes more sense to throw in there anyway, because it's not like they're using the Sunny in the current battle.

    The Zoro point is also a strange one, given that the Wano samurai were always built up as allies rather than enemies. Who are we counting as "one swordsman" anyway? Killer? Denjiro? Onimaru? King?

    The strongest point in the op is the one about Sanji. Of all the crew, he's the one I've been least satisfied with the development of. A moment like the one suggested that takes him back to his roots would go a long way to changing his trajectory. Even with it being a plot point that his stand was a meeting place for the alliance, it couldn't have taken too much kerjigging to get him feeding the hungry outside the city instead without disrupting the story. And even then, like Robin and Franky, it could still happen post-Onigashima, without the need to worry about blowing his cover or the enemy sweeping in and taking the food back.

    I'm saving my final judgement on Wano and whether it's tangled web of tangents in the middle act were worth it for after the arc is done and I've given it a full reread. It feels a little silly to commit so hard to there being so many things missing or failed while the wheel's still in spin.
    I will admit, that some of the examples I made were just off the top of my head. Especially Brook's , LOL. I couldn't think about what he could do in the arc.

    As for Zoro, Oda had setup an interesting conflict with Kyoshiro(before he became Denjiro) so we at least knew that there were some potentially powerful Wano Samurai working for Orochi and Kaidou. The one swordsman I count is Killer.

    But yeah, its not a total complaint. Its just that I noticed that the Straw Hats haven't really done all that much in Wano and its coming to an end very soon.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    I can get some of these complaints but I don't think in one arc Oda would try to cover all of the strawhats talents since we've seen them already gradually starting from each member joined. It risks being more of the same thing and Oda does show growth or character development with the strawhats in other ways. Some of your suggestions have been done in the past in different ways though.

    Sanji crying for Robin then she actually steps up and delivers. Sanji got the whole last arc to get more back story which is really unprecedented if your name isn't Luffy.

    I expected a bit more spotlight on Zoro but that didn't really pan out the way I thought it would (only had Sanji to compare to).

    Oda has pretty much stayed on mission going back to when Luffy and Law formed their alliance.

    As for the crews dreams, it seems ever since they reunited all of the strawhats seemed to have all dedicated themselves to making Luffy pirate king first. They haven't forgotten them its just in the new world your pretty much are just facing yonkou crews and their allies so pretty much only Robin's and Luffy's dreams are advancing for now.
    I agree to an extent.

    But can we also agree that Wano's plot and themes were perfectly setup to cater to the Straw Hat's individual skill outside battle?
    HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
    ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by kevo_koma View Post
    First of all, we literally had an arc, Zou, where Chopper was curing the minks from poison. Now he is curing the samurai in Udon, and curing again in Onigashima. No one is complaining. In fact, these are great developments because Chopper is doing what he does best and actually tangibly affecting the flow of the plot.
    i.e: Without chopper, we don't get Mink allies,
    Sure, but what doctoring did Chopper do in Alabasta? Jaya? Skypeia? Davy Back? Water 7? Thriller Bark? Sabondy? Fishman Island? Punk Hazard? Dresserossa? Caketown?

    On Thriller Bark he told the crew what weakpoint to attack on Oars, but no actual doctoring.
    On Fishman Island, he helped Sanji with his self-inflicted nosebleeds, and a blood transfusion for Luffy at the end.
    On Punk Hazard he had concern over the kids, but so did Nami! And Law actually did all the docotoring there.

    Your examples of him doing doctor stuff are good, but they are exceptions, not the rule. More often than not, he DOESN'T show off any doctoring, certainly not *during* the arc. The extent we see it is usually in post arc "put these bandages on!" comedy bits, its very rarely important to the actual plot. Heck, even Zoro's current miracle cure had nothing to do with him.

    Similarly Sanji has only done his "I must feed the hungry no matter what" but only a few times. Robin's archeology stuf was central to Skypeia, but mostly in the background everywhere else except the *finale* of Fishman Island. Franky fixes the boat when its daamged but we didn't even see him react badly when he saw what a mess Sunny was in after Cake land, he just fixed it up off camera... nor do we ever see him BUILDING his mechs, he just has them when its time. Nami's navigator stuff is mostly predicting bad weather and being given a new compass every 500 chapters, but she's never sat down and drawn a map. But she probably will do exactly that when we get all the poneglyps and she has to make a big X marks the spot.

    Its ncie when we see them use their talents, yes, but them being used in-arc is actually pretty rare.


    without chopper, we don't get udon prisoner allies, without chopper, we don't get more beast pirate allies.
    That's a cause and effect because Oda made it so, but that has NOTHING to do with Chopper being a doctor. Even without that you have things like Tama's ability, or Nami stealing away one of Big Mom's tools, or the fact that Kaidou's top guys are just slaughtering their own men and inspiring no loyalty as a result..

    Like at Water 7 Usopp was able to recruit giants to his side. Is that specifically because Usopp told such a great story and had such a great respect for giants, that he's the only one that could have done it? No, any of the strawhats that had met Dorry and Broggy could have done the same thing.

    Yes, CHopper helped turn around enemies to allies. that's NOT a trait of him doctoring, thats a trait of him being a strawhat and showing the integrity and passion needed to convince others. That's a trait of the whole crew.

    That's like saying "Only Brook could have stopped the zombies on Thriller Bark because his being a musician... allowed him to happen to oversee the salt weakness once."

    Chopper helping others is what turned them around. His doing doctoring is his particular way of showing it, but his miracle curing has nothing to do with actually pulling people over... his helping them at all does. The *same* thing would have happened if instead, King set all his own guys on fire and Jimbe or Brook or Nami put the fires out. (And that may actually yet happen given the floor on fire.) Or if someone was going to behead their inions and Zoro blocked it.

    Hell, just look at all the allies Luffy wracked up during a colosseum fight on Dresserossa.
    Last edited by Robby; September 20th, 2021 at 01:12 AM.
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  8. #28

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    absolutely great points
    Yes Robby. All the things you have mentioned are things I acknowledge and completely understand.

    May main point was that, Wano, as we've seen so far, was perfectly setup to depict the SH using their individual talents to affect the plot in some way. The other arcs, were not.

    Sure, tama and Queen played a huge role in turning the beast pirates. But as readers and fans we are still happy to see that Chopper being an actual doctor also contributed to the advancement of that particular plot point. Its not a huge impact, but we can always say that, In Wano, Chopper acted as a doctor and it had a tangible effect on the plot.

    As for Sanji(Unless I am horribly wrong) we have never ever seen him approach the starvation plot point ever since leaving Baratie. His entire 2 year training was centered on him primarily improving as a cook first and a fighter second. Surely, in this arc that explicitly deals with a starving child, its not too much to ask for the guy who identifies and trains as a cook to act on this? Chopper healing the Udon guys and Luffy from Queen's virus was not needed, but it still happened. So why couldn't Sanji do the same?
    Why did he have the role of feeding rich women in the capital who were already living the good life.

    What would the plot/story have lost if the exact same scenario happened, but just change the location and have it be one of the dozens of starving villages?

    As for the chopper part. If he had not cured the Udon prisoners, then the alliance numbers would have been severely reduced. That is something no one can ever take from him. He played a huge role in recruiting a significant portion of the alliance.

    In contrast, Zoro made a big deal declaring how he was going to recruit samurais. BUT he ended not recruiting even one goddamn person.



    The SH, could have used their skills to recruit people to the rebellion/alliance.

    Franky is a genius inventor, how fitting would it have been if he invented a water purifier for the poisoned water? Chopper cures the prisoners, but they are still weak from all the years of barely eating anything, Franky provides clean water, Sanji provides newkama recipes. The alliance becomes stronger cause their bodies are now replenished. This is just an example.

    Wano is the first arc where the SH have truly gone to war.

    Is it too much to ask to see them actually doing something to contribute to the war effort outside fighting good?
    HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
    ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Sure, but what doctoring did Chopper do in Alabasta? Jaya? Skypeia? Davy Back? Water 7? Thriller Bark? Sabondy? Fishman Island? Punk Hazard? Dresserossa? Caketown?

    On Thriller Bark he told the crew what weakpoint to attack on Oars, but no actual doctoring.
    On Fishman Island, he helped Sanji with his self-inflicted nosebleeds, and a blood transfusion for Luffy at the end.
    On Punk Hazard he had concern over the kids, but so did Nami! And Law actually did all the docotoring there.

    Your examples of him doing doctor stuff are good, but they are exceptions, not the rule. More often than not, he DOESN'T show off any doctoring, certainly not *during* the arc. The extent we see it is usually in post arc "put these bandages on!" comedy bits, its very rarely important to the actual plot. Heck, even Zoro's current miracle cure had nothing to do with him.
    Putting bandages on is more than enough to get the point across.
    We don't need whole episodes of Chopper setting Zoro's bones and grinding drugs and replacing Zoro's colostomy bag.

    Robin's seen reading a book periodically, Franky's often holding a hammer, Sanji cooks regularly, Brook plays music often, Zoro always has his swords, Usopp's done plenty of brave things but somehow he never stops acting cowardly.

    It's really just Nami whose dream has been neglected.
    Last edited by RoboBlue; September 20th, 2021 at 07:34 AM.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    *Bellemere finally released from her jail cell end of series*
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  11. #31
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Regardless of the specific suggestions made, I sympathize with kevo_komas overall point. It’s not so much that the Straw Hats didn’t do “these specific things”, its just borne out of them being increasingly marginalized in general. After being all together at Punk Hazard (400 chapters ago!) The crew splits up at Dressrosa with the ones remaining fighting for paneltime with a massive cast of characters. The crew is then mostly gathered in Zou, but are almost completely passive since it’s the Exposition Arc. Theres a bit more Straw Hat focus in Whole Cake since the number of allies is comparatively restrained, but its still only half the crew. And then the crew is again split apart and fighting for paneltime in the first two acts of Wano.

    Things have improved on Onigashima in terms of Straw Hat focus. And despite several people being dismissive of kevo_komas suggestions as being “repetitive”, things we already know, these moments have involved “stock” beats like Usopp exaggerating his strength, Sanji and Zoro bickering, Nami being protective of children and so on. A cornerstone of Jinbes character is him fighting against racism and his first big fight is against a racist- this is “redundant” but like, I’m not gonna object to seeing Jinbe punch a racist in the face.

    That goes for Choppers moment against Queen too, where an evil scientist is using evil chemicals/pathogens in a callous way that hurts friends and foe alike, and he is countered by the Straw Hat with a history of fighting mad scientist and the most medical know-how and an explicit dream of curing everyone which means he altruistically cures enemies as well, and then in a two-page spread he punches a high ranking enemy officer while voicing his frustration at being mistaken for a tanuki, a long running gag in the series. It’s playing on all sorts of notes from Choppers established character to craft a “Chopper Moment” that highlights Chopper being cool in a specifically Chopper way.
    This whole scenario shows Oda being aware of and capitalizing on the specific elements in play to showcase a specific character which is him doing…exactly what Kevo Koma is arguing in favor of the manga needing more of? Like, I liked that moment, I find this desire pretty unobjectionable.
    This whole scenario COULD have been written in a way tailored to another Straw Hat, but it wasn’t, and if it had…well it would mean it had been an [insert Other Straw Hat] moment, no? Flattening this moment into something “Any Straw hat could have done” dismisses all things Oda used to make it a “Chopper moment”, in the same way that the giants at Enies Lobby were converted by Usopp specifically -the guy who uses giants as inspirational figures for his dream of being a “brave warrior”, and was experiencing a moment of cowardice at the time.

    All this is to say, I totally get where Kevo_koma is coming from with his Sanji-starvation angle; if the manga can play on his supervillain super-science family the arc after it was used, and give him a vs Kalifa 2.0 moment, and drag back his awful dream of becoming invisible to ogle women in the bath, why not also his most sympathetic trait – a trait that is explicitly tied to his core values? In an arc where starvation has never been more relevant, where it’s the bedrock of Luffys emotional investment in Wano, vis a vis Tama? If the Straw Hats visited Racism Island, Seriously So Much Racism and a poster said “Jinbe will probably play a role here” at the beginning of said arc, I doubt anyone would disagree(Cue: ”starvation wasn’t that big a plotpoint in Wano, not in the Grand Scheme Of Things, we’re not supposed to care that much”). Honestly, I think it simply comes down to Oda not having made this connection while plotting out the arc. Something Greg highlighted in his thread is the difference between fans who have all the time in the world to relentlessly pore over the past and present of the series, as opposed to Oda, who invests his energy in propelling the series towards the future, in keeping his countless spinning plates spinning.

    And Oda may be writing a traditional Enies Lobby style climax now (though lets be frank, SH focus is considerably reduced compared to Enies Lobby), but said climax is coming off two prior acts where SH presence has been way more negligible. And this ties into the lack of Straw Hat emotional engagement in Wanos plight, which has been evoked here; other behemoth arcs have been anchored by the crews investment in Vivi, or Robin, or Sanji, and the equivalent in what is going to be the longest arc ever could have been investment in the people of Wano – especially since the crew is already going on a set of country-wide sidequests prior to the big finale.
    This would not necessarily be by the specific examples given by kevo_koma (though in general, tying the misfortune of the locals or villainy of the villains directly to the personal ideals/dreams/principles of the straw Hats is a pretty handy way of establishing emotional engagement see Chopper/Queen and Jinbe/Whoswho), but the problem is, even for the Straw Hats that do get a little to do (poor Usopp, Brook and Franky) there just isn’t much carry-over between the events before the raid and during it.
    Nami and Usopps actions during the raid have been defined by their babysitting of Tama, a character neither had interacted with before the raid. Pageone is the only non-Drake flying six member to appear before the raid but his scuffle with Sanji is not followed up upon in any way, and instead a Queen/Sanji connection materializes during Onigashima. Robin gathers intelligence at the palace pre-raid, but said intelligence has been completely irrelevant. After having trained as a geisha and protected a prostitute-trainee (That’s what Toko was? I think?) Robin fights the head of the Onigashima brothel, but said things have no relation to each other. I had honestly forgotten about Robin having interacted with Otoko until know because it has been as relevant as Zoros history with Hiyori so far, which is to say not evoked at all.

    Even if one disagree with the specific examples given here for how the Straw Hats could have been more involved in Wano, I think its pretty fair to argue that giving them more to do, making them more involved by playing off their established characters, could have been a boon to the arc. At least based on the baseline assumption of “I like the Straw Hats and would like them to have more presence than they’ve had in this current arc”, an assumption one may of course not necessarily subscribe to.

    TL:DR The Straw Hats may be getting some moments now, and I approve of that in general, but in the context of their handling for the last decade, the first 60 chapters of Wano included, a lot of those moments are less, “yay, good going Franky!” and more “Oh Right! Franky is pretty cool, isn’t he? I miss Franky… its been a while”

  12. #32

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Regardless of the specific suggestions made, I sympathize with kevo_komas overall point. It’s not so much that the Straw Hats didn’t do “these specific things”, its just borne out of them being increasingly marginalized in general. After being all together at Punk Hazard (400 chapters ago!) The crew splits up at Dressrosa with the ones remaining fighting for paneltime with a massive cast of characters. The crew is then mostly gathered in Zou, but are almost completely passive since it’s the Exposition Arc. Theres a bit more Straw Hat focus in Whole Cake since the number of allies is comparatively restrained, but its still only half the crew. And then the crew is again split apart and fighting for paneltime in the first two acts of Wano.

    Things have improved on Onigashima in terms of Straw Hat focus. And despite several people being dismissive of kevo_komas suggestions as being “repetitive”, things we already know, these moments have involved “stock” beats like Usopp exaggerating his strength, Sanji and Zoro bickering, Nami being protective of children and so on. A cornerstone of Jinbes character is him fighting against racism and his first big fight is against a racist- this is “redundant” but like, I’m not gonna object to seeing Jinbe punch a racist in the face.

    That goes for Choppers moment against Queen too, where an evil scientist is using evil chemicals/pathogens in a callous way that hurts friends and foe alike, and he is countered by the Straw Hat with a history of fighting mad scientist and the most medical know-how and an explicit dream of curing everyone which means he altruistically cures enemies as well, and then in a two-page spread he punches a high ranking enemy officer while voicing his frustration at being mistaken for a tanuki, a long running gag in the series. It’s playing on all sorts of notes from Choppers established character to craft a “Chopper Moment” that highlights Chopper being cool in a specifically Chopper way.
    This whole scenario shows Oda being aware of and capitalizing on the specific elements in play to showcase a specific character which is him doing…exactly what Kevo Koma is arguing in favor of the manga needing more of? Like, I liked that moment, I find this desire pretty unobjectionable.
    This whole scenario COULD have been written in a way tailored to another Straw Hat, but it wasn’t, and if it had…well it would mean it had been an [insert Other Straw Hat] moment, no? Flattening this moment into something “Any Straw hat could have done” dismisses all things Oda used to make it a “Chopper moment”, in the same way that the giants at Enies Lobby were converted by Usopp specifically -the guy who uses giants as inspirational figures for his dream of being a “brave warrior”, and was experiencing a moment of cowardice at the time.

    All this is to say, I totally get where Kevo_koma is coming from with his Sanji-starvation angle; if the manga can play on his supervillain super-science family the arc after it was used, and give him a vs Kalifa 2.0 moment, and drag back his awful dream of becoming invisible to ogle women in the bath, why not also his most sympathetic trait – a trait that is explicitly tied to his core values? In an arc where starvation has never been more relevant, where it’s the bedrock of Luffys emotional investment in Wano, vis a vis Tama? If the Straw Hats visited Racism Island, Seriously So Much Racism and a poster said “Jinbe will probably play a role here” at the beginning of said arc, I doubt anyone would disagree(Cue: ”starvation wasn’t that big a plotpoint in Wano, not in the Grand Scheme Of Things, we’re not supposed to care that much”). Honestly, I think it simply comes down to Oda not having made this connection while plotting out the arc. Something Greg highlighted in his thread is the difference between fans who have all the time in the world to relentlessly pore over the past and present of the series, as opposed to Oda, who invests his energy in propelling the series towards the future, in keeping his countless spinning plates spinning.

    And Oda may be writing a traditional Enies Lobby style climax now (though lets be frank, SH focus is considerably reduced compared to Enies Lobby), but said climax is coming off two prior acts where SH presence has been way more negligible. And this ties into the lack of Straw Hat emotional engagement in Wanos plight, which has been evoked here; other behemoth arcs have been anchored by the crews investment in Vivi, or Robin, or Sanji, and the equivalent in what is going to be the longest arc ever could have been investment in the people of Wano – especially since the crew is already going on a set of country-wide sidequests prior to the big finale.
    This would not necessarily be by the specific examples given by kevo_koma (though in general, tying the misfortune of the locals or villainy of the villains directly to the personal ideals/dreams/principles of the straw Hats is a pretty handy way of establishing emotional engagement see Chopper/Queen and Jinbe/Whoswho), but the problem is, even for the Straw Hats that do get a little to do (poor Usopp, Brook and Franky) there just isn’t much carry-over between the events before the raid and during it.
    Nami and Usopps actions during the raid have been defined by their babysitting of Tama, a character neither had interacted with before the raid. Pageone is the only non-Drake flying six member to appear before the raid but his scuffle with Sanji is not followed up upon in any way, and instead a Queen/Sanji connection materializes during Onigashima. Robin gathers intelligence at the palace pre-raid, but said intelligence has been completely irrelevant. After having trained as a geisha and protected a prostitute-trainee (That’s what Toko was? I think?) Robin fights the head of the Onigashima brothel, but said things have no relation to each other. I had honestly forgotten about Robin having interacted with Otoko until know because it has been as relevant as Zoros history with Hiyori so far, which is to say not evoked at all.

    Even if one disagree with the specific examples given here for how the Straw Hats could have been more involved in Wano, I think its pretty fair to argue that giving them more to do, making them more involved by playing off their established characters, could have been a boon to the arc. At least based on the baseline assumption of “I like the Straw Hats and would like them to have more presence than they’ve had in this current arc”, an assumption one may of course not necessarily subscribe to.

    TL:DR The Straw Hats may be getting some moments now, and I approve of that in general, but in the context of their handling for the last decade, the first 60 chapters of Wano included, a lot of those moments are less, “yay, good going Franky!” and more “Oh Right! Franky is pretty cool, isn’t he? I miss Franky… its been a while”
    @Daz thank you so much. I feel completely understood by your post.

    Thank you for putting into words what I clearly could not.
    HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
    ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Putting bandages on is more than enough to get the point across.
    We don't need whole episodes of Chopper setting Zoro's bones and grinding drugs and replacing Zoro's colostomy bag.

    Robin's seen reading a book periodically, Franky's often holding a hammer, Sanji cooks regularly, Brook plays music often, Zoro always has his swords, Usopp's done plenty of brave things but somehow he never stops acting cowardly.

    It's really just Nami whose dream has been neglected.
    IIRC Oda stated in a volume around the end of WCI that she does draw maps everyday. I guess he simply doesn't find it necessary to show it because it's part of her "routine" even if I believe getting one panel (like in chapter 156) of her drawing every 100-150 chapters wouldn't be too much.
    Spoiler:


    [


    [PSi

  14. #34

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    All of this can happen st the end of the Arc easily, when there is no longer any major conflict to deal with.

    But I agree with the general sentiment that Strawhats are underutilizing their main aspects. No one has been shown being empowered by Sanji's food specifically. You could point at the time Sanji makes a bento for starving Luffy, but just the same Luffy could be eating swamp-covered food and do fine.....

  15. #35
    Partly Sunny Syphin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Yeah, if Oda had more time to focus on the Straw Hat Pirates and their role within an arc story, each of their portrayals in the arc would be tighter. Sadly with the Wano Arc, it is too dam bloated with too many characters and stories for Oda to concern himself with. Focusing on those characters unfortunately comes at the expense of attention on the Straw Hat Pirates (save Luffy).

    - Straw Hat Pirates;
    - Heart Pirates;
    - Kid Pirates;
    - Beast Pirates;
    - Akazaya Nine;
    - Momonosuke;
    - Hiyori;
    - Shinobu;
    - Orochi and Kanjuro;
    - Hawkins;
    - Drake;
    - Apoo;
    - Linlin;
    - Perospero;
    - Minks;
    - Carrot
    - Tama;
    - Hitetsu;
    - Tsuru;
    - Toko;
    - Shimotsuki Yasuie;
    - Marco;
    - Izo;
    - Onimaru;
    - Hyogoro;
    - Other Yakuza members;
    - Kyoshiro Family;
    - Orochi Oniwabanshu;
    - Mimawarigumi;
    - CP-0;
    - Whitebeard Pirates;
    - Roger Pirates;
    - Oden;
    - Yamato

    It certainly would be cool to have more attention given to the Straw Hat Pirates performing acts that deal with their skills. But considering how Oda already has the stories of each of the Straw Hat Pirates planned, he likely chose to focus on other secondary and tertiary characters that need to be highlighted and have their stories told within the Wano Arc e.g. Akazaya Samurai.

    The expansive cast is also why I don't want the Big Mom Pirates to show up in the Wano Arc and become players within the conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syphin View Post
    If the main Big Mom Pirates were added into this arc as main antagonist, Wano Kuni would become beyond bloated. The story, flow and enjoyment are already suffering with the amount of characters Oda has to handle and switch between. I also don't see Big Mom being defeated without the presence of her crew. The Big Mom Pirates so far have been handled poorly in my opinion save a few members. As a Yonko crew, they have had an overall lackluster showing. I'd prefer it if Big Mom and her crew were held off for a later arc then being dealt with in this already oversized arc where they would be perceived as merely extra and not central. The story needs to become more focused, not more expansive at this point. Momonosuke is about to have his moment and I'd rather it take center stage above everything else than being diluted because new antagonist need to be dealt with. Momonosuke has been the most important secondary character within the New World story and I hope Oda treats his story as such by giving it ample room to shine.

    Two Yonko being defeated in one arc would also in my mind do disservice to both Yonko.
    The Straw Hat Pirates are not the only characters suffering from a lack of focus, characters like the Mink and SMILE users are too. I'm sure focus will be expanded in the anime but in the manga, a lot of notable things happen off-screen. Also the lack of any badass Kakashi-type ninja in Wano is a tragedy. Shinobu and Raizo are alright but the ninja could have been more prominent in the Wano culture.

    With that said, I still find myself enjoying One Piece for what it is.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    A single small panel of her drawing once every two hundred chapters or so would be enough.

    The way things are now it feels like her dream got left back at Reverse Mountain along with Sanji's dream.
    This is quite a different situation. Nami's dream is a more active one (ie it requires her working on it regularly) whereas Sanji's is passive. What's more, I feel like WCI added more nuance to what Sanji's true aspirations are. Both him and Luffy are in it for the journey more than for the destination (becoming PK/ finding All Blue).


  17. #37
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by kevo_koma View Post


    I agree to an extent.

    But can we also agree that Wano's plot and themes were perfectly setup to cater to the Straw Hat's individual skill outside battle?
    Some of them, sure.
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
    Last.fm

  18. #38

    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by kevo_koma View Post
    First of all, we literally had an arc, Zou, where Chopper was curing the minks from poison. Now he is curing the samurai in Udon, and curing again in Onigashima. No one is complaining. In fact, these are great developments because Chopper is doing what he does best and actually tangibly affecting the flow of the plot.
    i.e: Without chopper, we don't get Mink allies, without chopper, we don't get udon prisoner allies, without chopper, we don't get more beast pirate allies.
    No one is complaining? Pretty sure I've seen a lot of people voicing how bad it is that's all Chopper does these days, including here, where there was a thread discussing the matter.

    In fact, doing the same thing every arc is the opposite of development to me. That's arguably lazy and gives the impression Oda doesn't know anything else to do with the character. Chopper showing more determination and faith in Luffy when his supposed defeat was announced would be leagues above curing people for the 100th time, IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptayn View Post
    This is quite a different situation. Nami's dream is a more active one (ie it requires her working on it regularly) whereas Sanji's is passive. What's more, I feel like WCI added more nuance to what Sanji's true aspirations are. Both him and Luffy are in it for the journey more than for the destination (becoming PK/ finding All Blue).
    Honestly, it feels like that, at this moment, the StrawHats' individual dreams get a backseat to making Luffy the Pirate King.
    It's not even fair singling out Nami or anyone else when none of them brings up their goals anymore. Yes, even Zoro, whose dream is more concrete and requires active effort. One could argue getting stronger gets him closer to it, sure, but he seems painfully obviously more determined to make Luffy king right now. Can't even remember how many times since the TS he mentioned beating Mihawk or becoming the best swordsman, if at all. But I think this is entirely intentional, like with Sanji, as you said.
    Last edited by goty; September 20th, 2021 at 08:02 PM.

  19. #39
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    So ppl want to see Chopper do more of what? Fighting?

    Chopper doing doctor shit seems par for the course to me.
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
    Last.fm

  20. #40
    21st Century Schizoid Man Johnny B. Decent's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wano has Failed the StrawHat Characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    So ppl want to see Chopper do more of what? Fighting?

    Chopper doing doctor shit seems par for the course to me.
    It'd be nice, yeah.

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