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Thread: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

  1. #2901

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Kamabakka did not want to rape Sanji, they wanted to liberate him.
    It was in bad taste regardless considering how it was played off, and Sanji´s comments did not help (but Sanji has been a shitty character for 14 years at least at this point, so...), but it was not about rape, not even a implication, hence why Sanji was turned into a cosplayer in the cover story for a while. And i would claim it ties into Ivankov´s speech about being free from the constraints of "male and female" and just being a human in whatever way you personally see fit.

  2. #2902

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by starlalilymoon View Post
    For me, fiction =/= real life. What you have in fiction can be vastly different from the real world as these things do not have to be the same at all. You can do all sorts of stuff in fiction that would be wrong in real life even. The point of fiction is seeing a different reality of your own, to challenge one's thoughts, to see a different perspective, etc.

    Like for example, I can't just go declare war on the government like in One Piece for example. But in their reality, it is possible plus they have crazy powers to be able to survive and not get arrested. I appreciate One Piece for what it is, I like it being goofy and at times touch heavy subjects within their world. Things can relate, but other times things don't relate. It's that simple.

    Lastly, I think Oda is doing a great job with Yamato! She's just a tomboy who wants to be her hero. That is cute and adorable in a way, even if it is a coping mechanism to escape Kaido. There is nothing wrong with this narrative and shouldn't be seen as offensive as it has nothing to do with being trans.
    Yeah, at that point, it becomes less about the manga, and more about attempting to address real-world issues in a way that makes me wonder how they reconcile with their lives, as if Oda is obligated to appeal to their world views because of how important trans people are and that Oda owes them more attention because of how important the topic is, even understanding that One Piece can be social in the first place. If they’re really gonna see Oda as a bad guy making an attack/betrayal on trans people for how he ultimately reveals that Yamato is female, and that Kaido and the others have clashing reasons for referring to Yamato as a he such as patriarchies, then at some point people they should probably take a step back and think about how to progress with their own lives further.


    Another way to put it: If people have enough time to type out many long responses regarding the world’s situation regarding trans-people to many other posters on shonen manga forums on the internet, heavily emphasizing their feelings on the situation and how offended they may have felt, regardless of who’s right and who’s wrong, then it also makes me wonder how much they spend their time in attempting to help out or defend those they’re presumably attempting to help out or defend, not just on the internet, but also beyond that.
    Last edited by electricmastro; September 3rd, 2021 at 11:44 PM.

  3. #2903

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    Kamabakka did not want to rape Sanji, they wanted to liberate him.
    It was in bad taste regardless considering how it was played off, and Sanji´s comments did not help (but Sanji has been a shitty character for 14 years at least at this point, so...), but it was not about rape, not even a implication, hence why Sanji was turned into a cosplayer in the cover story for a while. And i would claim it ties into Ivankov´s speech about being free from the constraints of "male and female" and just being a human in whatever way you personally see fit.
    Sure looked like sexual assault to me.

  4. #2904
    Discovered Stowaway fana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I don't really care about that debate regarding a fictional character's pronoun to be used in some random forums.

    Just one thing that I see in some comments that I find weird is people dreading that Oda will have male characters (Sanji, Brook...) being attracted to Yamato or continue to draw the character in sexy feminine outfits (see future colorspreads once she's in the crew).

  5. #2905
    Partly Sunny Syphin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    For me, I find Yamato to be an incredibly fascinating and exciting character. What I find truly compelling is how they handled themselves as a living being within the environment they were in. They should have been riddled with despair and engulfed in a darkness that all but crippled them. Yet, as the hopelessness of everything around them raged. something within Yamato anchored onto a constant that weathered them through the storm of despondency. The spirit of a Samurai touched Yamato and became the flame that would not only save Yamato from succumbing to the darkness that is the negativity of their mind but also enabled them to discover the strength they held within. In addition to being in awe, Yamato leaves me inspired.

    Edit: As for the topic of gender, I don't have much of value to add but if I may, it has gotten me to think more about the concept/role/meaning of gender. It also got me recall the moment I was watching Revolutionary Girl Utena and thought while in awe at Utena - 'ah, where is my prince?" As a straight male, it should have been odd to have such thought but all my mind responded with was "what is wrong with the role of a prince not being affixed to gender?" To this day, Revolutionary Girl Utena remains one of my favourite series. At that time, I may not have dwelled much on the themes of gender in play within the story but this is where One Piece has come in. Yamato has inspired me to learn about such a concept, A concept I never knew contained such vast perspectives.

    Spoiler:
    Last edited by Syphin; September 4th, 2021 at 04:16 AM.

  6. #2906

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Sure looked like sexual assault to me.
    Seems like projection, unless we have a different definition of rape.

  7. #2907

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Well sanji in new kama kingdom thing is how often people are randomly sent into an island ? the inhabitants though that sanji deep down wanted to be here to be his true self but was too shy to do so.

  8. #2908

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    Seems like projection, unless we have a different definition of rape.
    Being chased, forcibly undressed and made to dress in fetish gear is certainly outside of my zone of acceptable behaviour. Try doing that to a woman and explain that i wasn't assaulting her i was just trying to "free her spirit". They were forcing themselves on an unwilling Sunkist and that is enough for it to feel rapey in my book

  9. #2909

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I'm gonna pretend I didn't read someone saying that can be multiple definitions of rape.



  10. #2910

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I really hope people at least understand that when Oda wrote that scene, he had zero to no intentions of portraying rape or anything of that severity.
    Was he misinformed? Yes, was it something that he should looked into? Yes probably.
    It was a honest mistake, he's not omnipotent and this can be said for this case with the mess that is Yamato's gender too.
    His intention then with Sanji, was to portray it as a comedy-ish scene and it is very difficult for him to flesh out the okama in the limited panels, so the way he went about it was to have them act in the one-way that in his mind that he is most familiar with. This familiarity is a problem and is a underrepresentation, and even a poor one of the community but I don't necessarily think he did it with an intention of generalizing them.
    Transgender issues in Japan hasn't been the most progressive WHEN compared to the States but it has been improving and if you've spend enough time with Japanese media, there are way way more shows/manga/whatever that overly generalize transgender people as a certain type of mama personality. You would, however, find this stereotype in early American movies too which surprisingly is something that the older generation of Japanese would easily stereotype or generalize when they think about transgender personalities.


    Which is wrong because the world is more progressive now but I don't go full fire on Oda if that's his first thought to fall back on when it comes to writing characters of that nature because I at least understand that this is not what his work is about and he has never had the intention to degrade them. I like to believe he wants to be more progressive but can be prone to mistakes, but the intention of wanting to shouldn't be a mistake we focus on. This guy wrote amazing transgender characters (mr 2) that relatively speaking was not seen in the industry for decades and has not yet been topped. The west needs to understand that being sensitive and "correct" about the minority communities is not something that is as much in-your-face or an open conversation as it is in countries like Japan. Unlike the culture over there, Oda isn't frequently in contact with this sensitivities or the insensitivities that should be practiced. It doesn't mean that he shouldn't put more effort into researching and understanding but give the guy a break and practice some cultural understanding.

    If I'm not wrong and this is obviously going to piss people off, I think his intentions for Yamato has been to have a different kind of female character to join the crew that stands out from Robin and Nami while being very strong and is, like many straw hats, influence by a major character(which is Oden). He obviously didn't want to write another guy, which is how Yamato comes into play. This is 100% conjecture and time will tell whether I am right. He don't want to write another male straw hat, the crew is lacking of females but he still want someone to carry oden's legacy to be one the boat. Another female that is not physically combat fit will be very similar to Nami and that's a problem.
    Once again, conjecture so don't flame me but if you do, sure I'll get it. I won't even be surprised if I come back to this thread a year from now and Yamato is dressed in female attires in color spreads because the production crew from writing to the anime has made little attempts to portray her otherwise.
    Last edited by zeltrax225; September 4th, 2021 at 07:01 AM.

  11. #2911

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Being chased, forcibly undressed and made to dress in fetish gear is certainly outside of my zone of acceptable behaviour. Try doing that to a woman and explain that i wasn't assaulting her i was just trying to "free her spirit". They were forcing themselves on an unwilling Sunkist and that is enough for it to feel rapey in my book
    Which is still not rape. Like i said, i am neither condoning it, nor denying it was not in bad taste, but yeah, its not rape since it both lacks a sexual intention and action.

  12. #2912

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    Which is still not rape. Like i said, i am neither condoning it, nor denying it was not in bad taste, but yeah, its not rape since it both lacks a sexual intention and action.
    Intimately fondling and undressing someone kicking and screaming and trying to get away is an act of rape where i'm from. Even 1960's Sean Connery wouldn't think that shit was acceptable.

  13. #2913

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Uh.....

    All this info coming out is real interesting.

    Yamatos unknown birth origin is another hint toward a flashback happening. Rather it's Kaido's or his.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  14. #2914

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I don't think Oda is using Yamato to make a social commentary on gender. I'm pretty sure he's just created a character who was born female but now wants to be presented as male. That doesn't have to be a commentary on anything, that's like saying every gay person in fiction has to be a commentary on homosexuality which is just ridiculous.

    Using the right pronouns is just a matter of common decency, and this seems to be where the community is polarised for some dumb reason.

    I'm pretty confident the only reason its not as discussed in Japan is because of the lack of pronouns. In most discussions I've seen they just treat Yamato as Yamato wants to be treated in the story, as a man.

  15. #2915

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I don't think there're doubts about if Newkama were trying to rape Sanji or not. I mean, half if not all of our cultures used to depict or make humour about how a transgender (which back then was automatically an homosexual) is a menace for heterosexuals' rear ends until just ten years ago and that scene was literally a hetero man running away from hungry transgender. It's clear the whole Sanji scene were just a way to refers to that very same "gag". The "Ace Ventura" attitude was a recurring gag for almost the whole previous generation people, and I really don't think Japanese is an exception, judging by how real life okamas were dealt with like perverts. It's basically one of the reasons there's need for a media rehabilitation of LGBTQ+ community.

    Oda is part of that generation and this is one of the reasons him depicting O-Kiku so good is such a goal and a beautiful redeeming action.
    Quote Originally Posted by rayleigh92 View Post
    Carrot sneaked on the Sunny when they left Zou, not asking or requesting anyone. IF Carrot is going to join, I expect something like that, with the crew ready to leave Wano, all of them beginning to party for new nakama Yamato and then "wha-t?! Carrot is near Luffy

  16. #2916

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I went back and looked at the two manga panels we're talking about.

    from the One Piece wiki:

    Adventure on The Island of No Escape



    Maidens Through and Through


    I'm really not seeing any rape implications. At the time I read it as Sanji's okamaphobia being revealed to have been a subconscious attempt by him to run away from an aspect of himself, and eventually he gives in and becomes happier.
    But because he's a main character in a long-running shounen manga he can't just go off and have a new life, so he's forced by fate to repress his newfound happiness and go back to living the way he did before for the sake of his friends.

    When I looked up some clips from the anime it got a lot more sexual harassment-y so I can see why people got the impression that they were attempting to rape Sanji... but clearly when they caught him he didn't end up an okama sex slave. At worst the joke is that Sanji thought they were trying to rape him when in reality they just wanted him to join them, which he turned out to be happy doing until his own ingrained ideas about how men should act stopped him.
    Last edited by RoboBlue; September 4th, 2021 at 01:47 PM.

  17. #2917

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Harassing someone constantly, chasing them, ripping off their clothes, and forcing them into doing what you want... endlessly for two years! in a way that leaves a person traumatized afterwards is absolutely sexual assault.

    I'm not saying they wanted buttsechs, but they definitely wanted to violate Sanji's comfort zones and put their hands all over him and make him their pretty slave against his will.

    If the Okama had done that to Nami or Robin and insisted THEY had to be touched and undressed and made to dress prettier you'd be incredibly offended.

    Thats EXACTLY what Absalom did, just an arc earlier, and he was played completely as an iredeemable horror villain. To the point he's one of the few characters Oda's actually willing to kill!




    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    I'm really not seeing any rape implications.
    You're ignoring all the context that came AFTER that two panel gag.

    They caught him ONCE, and he played along ONCE so he could escape, and then he spent the NEXT TWO YEARS running endlessly so that they couldn't do it again. Sanji has full on vietnam flashbacks and turns to stone when he sees any okama now, and nearly died the first time he saw a woman again afterward.

    No one else was traumatized by their two years of training.
    Last edited by Robby; September 5th, 2021 at 12:51 AM.
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  18. #2918

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Being traumatized and possible rape implications are two different things.
    The Kamabakka people were trying to make him adapt to them and give up his "manhood" (which is offensive in itself) by putting on a dress on him and whatever else it entails to be like them. Sanji´s trauma is from defending his manhood for 2 years day and night, since they would constantly chase him and try to put him in the dress.
    There is no implication, no metaphor, no hint, that we are supposed to think "they want to rape him, hence Sanji is running", it was all about Sanji defending one of his core personality traits and principles. I also don´t know where the groping and putting their hands all over him and making him a slave comes from, in the manga nothing of the sort happened. Like Robo said, the anime was much more rapey and suggestive in their filler scenes, the manga had one core challenge, Sanji either defending his manliness and love for women, or becoming like the Kamabakka people. Nobody is saying Sanji had a good time, and the Kamabakka people forcing Sanji basically to become like them is problematic for different reasons, rape (which is non synonymous with sexual assault in the first place, just fyi) is not one of them.
    And i know this might seem like arguing semantics, but it isn´t, since straight out trying to rape somebody and being misguided in trying to liberate somebody (from their point of view) and harassing him/her are two vastly different things, and distinguishing them should be viable in a forum that has been arguing about the correct pronouns of a fictional character for a year or so.

  19. #2919

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I can't believe I have to explain this to a room of adults and literally pull out the dictionary definition but FINE.

    Quote Originally Posted by WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY
    Definition of rape (Entry 1 of 4)

    1:unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception
    It doesn't HAVE to include intercourse, that's just how we commonly use it when we make it strong word.. But any amount of unwanted sexual attention applied by force counts, even if you don't get to penetration. If one of the two parties is unwilling then its still rape, (or "attempted rape) regardless of how far it gets.

    "unlawful sexual activity... forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will"


    Other dictionary definitions

    2: an outrageous violation
    3: an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
    Hey, what does that sound like?

    Hey, here's a song lyric from 1986 musical Into the Woods.
    Greens green and nothing but green! Parsley, peppers, cabbages, and celery.
    Asparagus and Watercress and Fiddlefern and Lettuce. He said "Alright!"
    But it wasn't quite cause I caught him in the autumn in my garden one night!
    He was robbing me, RAPING ME.
    Rudding through my rutabagga raiding my arugula ripping up the Rampion my champion my favorite!
    Wow, is the witch implying there that the farmer was doing sex things to her? No, she was talking about the fact that he was violating her personal stuff!

    I'm sorry I used a common shorthand word that accurately fit the situation to paraphrase in a throwaway sentence and it turned into THIS. It wasn't even the subject of my post!

    I really wasn't expecting people to go "No, they wanted his manhood, not his manhood!"
    Last edited by Robby; September 5th, 2021 at 01:42 AM.
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    Official chapter discussions now start Sundays at Noon, EST.
    Please do not post threads when scan sites release their version, and just discuss those releases in the spoiler thread.

  20. #2920

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    So...sometimes a thread can derail a bit, but don't you think it would be better to create a own discussion thread for this whole Yamatos gender debate?

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