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Thread: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

  1. #2841

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    A lot with the problems regarding Yamato come from people placing their own bias on the character rather than waiting for his arc to unfold.

    I always found interesting that he’s called “Kaido’s daughter” in the narration box and volume openings, and that always carried some weight about the author’s intentions. I still call him “he” because he’s still refered that way by himself, but I never discarded the possibility of his character arc leading him to throw the Oden persona away at some point.

    (BTW, the same applies to his joining chances. The possibility is still open, but lately I see the character moving to another direction)
    And I admit that while I don't know the exact reason why Kaido, his subordinates, and others refer to Yamato as son/he, I think that if simply suggesting that Kaido wanting a patriarchy is just headcanon, as if this being the same manga where a father told his daughter that a woman can't be the strongest swordsman and wanting a son to inherit his dojo isn't worth taking into account, then isn't there something to be said about the suggestion of Kaido and others being pro-trans being headcanon as well, or is there not?

  2. #2842

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghidorah Guy View Post
    Lest we forget, this was the author who gave us Luffy in blackface during the Foxy arc.
    This is blatantly untrue unless you've only read the Chinese > English scanlations that mistranslated "afros" as "blacks."

  3. #2843

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    And I admit that while I don't know the exact reason why Kaido, his subordinates, and others refer to Yamato as son/he, I think that if simply suggesting that Kaido wanting a patriarchy is just headcanon, as if this being the same manga where a father told his daughter that a woman can't be the strongest swordsman and wanting a son to inherit his dojo isn't worth taking into account, then isn't there something to be said about the suggestion of Kaido and others being pro-trans being headcanon as well, or is there not?
    We can’t know for sure why Kaido and everyone else call Yamato a male, so right now speculation is all we have.

    I feel Oda just wanted a surprise reveal, and the in-story explanation won’t be anything out of ordinary, so Occam’s Razor may apply: Kaido wanted a son, so he calls Yamato a son.
    Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

  4. #2844

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by badwolf1234 View Post
    So with tenguyama card error age fix from 58 to 81 he is most likely sukiyaki
    And that he was 26 when Kozaburo illegally departed Wano, leading into how he personally might have known him for more time.

  5. #2845

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I was told on reddit (which is otherwise kind of a trash fire right now) that there's nuance in the language and cultural implications of Yamato's self-description that gets lost in translation.

    Like in the same way Kiku's samurai personal pronoun (sessha) reads as strongly masculine but, instead of contradicting her being a woman is seen as a way of expressing her warrior status, Yamato's use of "son" is masculine in the extreme, but can also be read as a role and set of expectations within the family unit that can be taken on without necessarily contradicting him being a cis woman. ie: daughter [gender] and son [role] don't have to be mutually exclusive the way they are in English and western culture (but they usually are, so it was a safe translation choice at the time) .

    Is anyone with more firsthand Japanese knowledge willing to provide a second opinion on this?

    Either way, I don't think it changes the fact that Yamato is deeply gender non-conforming, even in Japanese, and it doesn't change that I would stick with masculine pronouns for anyone who introduced themself to me the way he did to Luffy. I'm just trying really hard to understand the cultural divide that's made his identity feel so much splintered and contradictory to English-speaking fans than it apparently does to the Japanese target audience.

  6. #2846

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Not surprised Yamato is referred to as female pretty obvious she's a cosplayer gone too far. It'll become clear Yamato doesn't identity as male but Oden once she drops her current persona.

  7. #2847

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    So I want to put a different angle to Yamato's gender identification, because I'm curious what peoples' justifications are. IF Yamato drops the Oden stuff and IF the series narration box and marketing continues to refer to Yamato as female BUT in-story every character still uses male pronouns like He/Him because that's what Yamato prefers/is use to, what will be fans justifications to use She/Her?

    Basically: What if Yamato is fine being a women but would still prefer people use male pronouns?

    Will all the people on the female side of the argument swap to using male pronouns or will there be this adamant refusal like there is now?

  8. #2848
    Chocolate or raisins? Coookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Chaos View Post
    Not surprised Yamato is referred to as female pretty obvious she's a cosplayer gone too far. It'll become clear Yamato doesn't identity as male but Oden once she drops her current persona.
    That's the shittiest cosplay I've ever seen, Yamato got barely anything right. How can he be going to far if he never managed to get the basics right?

  9. #2849

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    A lot of interesting info, though part of me still hesitates to believe them completely due to VCs making mistakes and outright contradicting manga info, or the feeling that some interns are writing the cards with an editor as supervisor and then market them as Oda approved.

    Anyway, the bounties of the F6 are expected somewhat, though Pay Pay is a bit low.
    Robin and Franky beating around 500 million pirates will push them immensely, and i guess put the order of the Strawhats right. Hope Brook is not left behind.
    Jinbe basically crushing WW who has a similar bounty to Ace also tells a lot.
    King and Queen apparently are grouped together, with the younger brother Jack.

  10. #2850
    Chocolate or raisins? Coookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Proto-Yamato
    Spoiler:



  11. #2851

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by black-leg jex View Post
    So I want to put a different angle to Yamato's gender identification, because I'm curious what peoples' justifications are. IF Yamato drops the Oden stuff and IF the series narration box and marketing continues to refer to Yamato as female BUT in-story every character still uses male pronouns like He/Him because that's what Yamato prefers/is use to, what will be fans justifications to use She/Her?

    Basically: What if Yamato is fine being a women but would still prefer people use male pronouns?

    Will all the people on the female side of the argument swap to using male pronouns or will there be this adamant refusal like there is now?
    Unlike the other side of the debate, I have absolutely no issue switching to using feminine pronouns for Yamato once he himself does so. In the meantime, Yamato, the Beast Pirates, and Luffy himself are all continuing to use masculine pronouns/terms/nicknames, so I'll continue to stick with that until something actually changes. I'm not interested in making any assumptions about his character arc to justify this or that, just going with what the actual manga is doing in the here and now, as it should be.

  12. #2852

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by black-leg jex View Post
    So I want to put a different angle to Yamato's gender identification, because I'm curious what peoples' justifications are. IF Yamato drops the Oden stuff and IF the series narration box and marketing continues to refer to Yamato as female BUT in-story every character still uses male pronouns like He/Him because that's what Yamato prefers/is use to, what will be fans justifications to use She/Her?

    Basically: What if Yamato is fine being a women but would still prefer people use male pronouns?

    Will all the people on the female side of the argument swap to using male pronouns or will there be this adamant refusal like there is now?
    If everyone uses male terms going forward then that would make it obvious that we should be using male pronouns.
    I say "male terms" because in Japanese pronouns aren't definitively gendered the same way they are in English, but there are plenty of other words that provide gender context (like son and princess).

  13. #2853

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by black-leg jex View Post
    Basically: What if Yamato is fine being a women but would still prefer people use male pronouns?

    Will all the people on the female side of the argument swap to using male pronouns
    Yes, I would.
    But if that happens it would mean the narrator was wrong… or lied on purpose. How likely would that be…

    "There will be an answer, let it be."

  14. #2854

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhenja View Post
    Yes, I would.
    But if that happens it would mean the narrator was wrong… or lied on purpose. How likely would that be…
    No it wouldn't. In this scenario Yamato would still be Kaido's daughter and a girl so the Oda box would be right. He would just prefer using male pronouns because its what they are use to and they don't see a reason to change.

  15. #2855

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by black-leg jex View Post
    No it wouldn't. In this scenario Yamato would still be Kaido's daughter and a girl so the Oda box would be right. He would just prefer using male pronouns because its what they are use to and they don't see a reason to change.
    Then why introduce Kiku in the present as a girl and in the past as a boy?

    "There will be an answer, let it be."

  16. #2856
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    The whole Yamato discourse continues to baffle me. As a potentially unimformed non-LGBT person I will just say that even if Yamato is "just" a man by default because Oden was a man, then that still means that Yamato has an attitude towards gender which...means he will declare himself a man if it suits him, without thinking twice of it. Thats not a universal attitude to have -like as a cis het man I wouldn't go "I admire this woman so much I want to emulate her, and since she is a woman I guess I'm also a woman now". And its not like Yamato is "being Oden" purely as a "performance". Its not a "cosplay" or a Kanjuro style "act" because such things are donned with awareness and intent of its artificial, temporary nature. Yamato isn't emulating Oden as a lark, it is fully his identity, 24/7. Which includes...thinking of himself as a man.

    Its not comparable to an actor in a play, because Yamato is emulating Oden purely for his own benefit, not for that of an audience. I guess my stance is, even if Yamato turns out to change his stance of what gender he presents as, just because his stance is fluid I see no reason not accept what his current perspective may be.

  17. #2857

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhenja View Post
    Then why introduce Kiku in the present as a girl and in the past as a boy?
    Because that was to surprise the reader. The narrative was purposefully keeping Kiku's sex a secret but dropping hints about it to keep readers guessing. By the time the flashback happened, it had already been confirmed. With Yamato, his design makes it clear from the outset what his sex is.

  18. #2858

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Vivre card site already updated now https://one-piece.com/vivre/list2.php

  19. #2859

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    If everyone uses male terms going forward then that would make it obvious that we should be using male pronouns.
    I say "male terms" because in Japanese pronouns aren't definitively gendered the same way they are in English, but there are plenty of other words that provide gender context (like son and princess).
    That is the main issue, though. If pronouns don't exist in Japanese, theres a good chance this debate will never end since we will always have to go by hints like that. Like if the Oden thing is dropped but Yamato makes no mention of being a woman or a man again.

  20. #2860

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by black-leg jex View Post
    Because that was to surprise the reader. The narrative was purposefully keeping Kiku's sex a secret but dropping hints about it to keep readers guessing. By the time the flashback happened, it had already been confirmed. With Yamato, his design makes it clear from the outset what his sex is.
    Then why introduce Yamato as daughter even though Kaido called her his son? Nothing surprising there because as you said you can identify her sex by just looking at her…

    During the flashback Kiku didn’t feel as a woman that’s why the box says brother… during her introduction in present she already made the decision to be a woman long ago.

    "There will be an answer, let it be."

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